The Shortcut To Wealth | Michael Johnston

Becoming a millionaire is easy if you follow the right playbook, according to WealthChannel co-founder Michael Johnston.

He joins the show to discuss the pitfalls that many investors fall into, and how you can fix your investing system with less effort than you think.

Watch On YouTube

Episode Highlights

Why Michael believes that the education and behavior gap among everyday investors is the most important (and underreported) story in finance.
How content creation incentives have created a distortion in financial content that has resulted in a “missing middle.”
The challenges in taking a complex topic (like financial planning) and distilling it into simple, easily-digestible pieces of content.
Details on WealthChannel Academy, a new show and learning resource published by WealthChannel.
Michael’s best advice to investors who want to distinguish the signal from the noise as they filter through financial information.

Today’s Guest: Michael Johnston, WealthChannel Academy

About The Alternative Investment Podcast

The Alternative Investment Podcast is a leading voice in the alternatives industry, covering private equity, private credit, venture capital, and real estate. Host Andy Hagans interviews asset managers, family offices, and industry thought leaders, as they discuss the most effective strategies to grow generational wealth.

Listen Now

Episode Transcript

– [Michael] But you don’t need to know a million things to be a good investor. Like I think, honestly, I think you need to know seven things. I think you need to understand seven concepts, not 7 million, and if you get those seven, like man, you’re most of the way there. You’re going to beat 90% of folks out there, and you’ve got much better odds of a worry-free retirement and of meeting your goals. â™ª

[music] – [Andy] Welcome to the show. I’m WealthChannel co-founder, Andy Hagens. You know, as investors, we often focus on the daily, weekly, monthly gyrations, the news of what’s going on in the markets and in the macro economy. But the truth is that your success as an investor really hinges on your ability to draft a solid plan that fits your goals, and then hold to and implement that plan over the long term, regardless of what the markets or macro economy is doing at any given time, you know, through those ups and downs.

So, how confident are you, as an investor, that you’re really focusing on the right things, and how do you sift through all of that deluge of financial information that’s out there to distinguish the signal from the noise? Joining me today is Michael Johnston, my fellow co-founder at WealthChannel to talk about this issue and many more.

Michael, welcome to the show.

– Thanks, Andy. Great to be with you.

– And, I don’t want to bury the lead. We’re going to talk a little bit about some exciting stuff that we have going on inside WealthChannel. You’re working on a big project while I’m working on it as well, we’re working on it together, but it’s a huge, big, audacious project. How excited are you about it on a scale of 1 to 10?

– Oh, man, Andy, I’m like an 11. Three things here. I’m super passionate about this. It’s something I’ve been working on for a long time, like in a way I’ve been working on this thing for the last 20 years, and number three, maybe most importantly, it’s going to make a bunch of money for a lot of people, help them be better investors, kind of help them rethink their portfolio, so those three things.

Been working on it a long time, super passionate about it, and making a bunch of money for a bunch of people. Yeah, up to an 11.

– All right. Well, I’m an 11 as well, and I agree with you. It’s what you have teed up, it’s almost like your entire career was leading up to do this. I think you’re the perfect person to lead this, and now we’ve previewed what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to get to that, but I want to kick off and frame the discussion in the context of a big question.

And that question is, Michael, what do you think, in your view, what is the most under-reported story in the world of finance right now?

– Yeah. So, for me, Andy, my answer to this question, I don’t think it’s changed in a long time. For some people it might change week to week or month to month, but for me it’s kind of zooming out and the biggest story is the education gap, and the behavior gap, and by that I mean generally a poor performance by investors leaving money on the table, not doing some basic things.

And that having just a massive detrimental effect on a lot of different things. You know, I can get accused sometimes of being a little bit hyperbolic here, but if we were better investors, if Americans were better investors, it just solves so many problems.

– Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting the education gap, like I hear the word education even and I almost fall asleep to be honest with you. I’m just like, oh, I’m going back to school? What is this? A test, a textbook? But, what you’re really talking about is a tax, right? It’s like the education gap or behavioral gap or both of them and they’re probably interrelated on any individual investor.

It’s probably the single biggest drag on their portfolio. It’s an even bigger drag than actual taxes. Would you agree with that?

– Yeah, absolutely. And taxes are a big part of it, of course. Actual taxes are a big part of it. But it’s a great point, Andy, like, I think everyone hears someone say something like this and they kind of nod and it’s like, oh, yeah, we should be better about financial literacy. They should teach that in high school or something. But no one really thinks like, well, what does that mean? So, here’s one example, Andy.

By some estimates, there are a little over 29 million zombie 401(k)s out there. So, people have left their job and they were contributing to a 401(k), and they went to a new job and they just kind of forgot about it, and they moved on. They didn’t roll it over to an IRA or they didn’t bring it with them. They’ve like totally forgotten about that money, and the estimate is that there’s about $1.6 trillion in these left-behind 401(k)s.

So like, just think about that for a minute, Andy. There’s 29 million Americans out there who have put on average $55,000 into a 401(k), and then because they didn’t really understand how it worked or they didn’t understand that that money’s theirs regardless, it immediately best they went to a new job and they kind of just forgot about it, and they lost track of it and it’s hopefully still growing in an account somewhere.

Hopefully they get it back. But like, just think about that for a minute. Like, that’s crazy, right, that there’s 29 million people out there who have made that mistake and that’s one of many mistakes that people make.

– Yeah, that is incredible. And I mean, it’s a reminder. I mean, here’s the thing, you’re a CFA, right?

– Yeah.

– Chartered financial analyst. So, you’re a very sophisticated person…

– Well, thank you.

– Yeah. And, when you get together with your friends who are also finance nerds, and I aspire, you know, I’d love to consider myself in that group. But you’re in the industry. You’re in the business, and so in your mind a lot of these advanced topics are sort of everyday talk or they’re sort of obvious, but in any given discipline, what a huge percentage, a huge majority of people are sort of at that beginner level of sophistication.

Is that the case with investing? Like, just to be clear, are most people still sort of baby stepping it when it comes to investing?

– Yeah, no, absolutely, Andy. And it’s a challenge for folks who are in the industry to simplify and kind of come down to the level that folks who are sophisticated and intelligent but maybe not on this particular topic, you know, they might be a talented surgeon or a great teacher or software engineer, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re financially sophisticated or can kind of understand some of these concepts.

So, it’s a challenge on folks who are in the industry to simplify, to break things down a little bit, and to kind of come down to the level and meet people really where they are, Andy. And I think that’s one of the biggest disconnects here. That’s one of the causes of why people are, the root causes here is there’s kind of this massive disconnect.

There’s what I call this big missing middle. So, by that, I mean you’ve got pretty sophisticated folks, right? You’ve got people with CFAs who are writing content for other people with CFAs, but a 3000 word article about what an inverted yield curve means for Brazilian soybean futures, like, Andy, that’s totally useless for a teacher who’s just thinking, you know, am I going to be able to retire?

Or for a software engineer who’s able to contribute to a 401(k) for the first time, so that type of content is like totally mishmash, right? It’s just a bunch of noise for people who are kind of asking more basic questions.

– And it has its place.

– Of course, right? It has its place, it’s to use an analogy for like a business owner, you know, two PhDs in accounting who are discussing some esoteric issue with an accountant, like, there’s a time and a place for that. It’s called the College of Accounting or the Accountants Conference or whatever. But most small business owners, or most people filing their taxes, they have basic block and tackle kind of questions about things, and those kind of questions and topics, probably after a while get boring and repetitive, maybe if you are the accounting professor in this analogy.

But that’s where most of the questions are. That’s where most of the value can be created because it’s where the rubber meets the road for the vast majority of people.

– Yeah, no, that’s absolutely right, Andy, and you’re right. People get bored with that and they don’t want to touch it, so what happens is that gets outsourced. It gets outsourced to a freelancer. It gets outsourced to the intern to write that piece of content. It gets outsourced offshore to someone overseas to write that content.

– Michael, I want to pause you here just for a second, because I think what you’re talking about, this is confession time for me. You’re talking about search engine optimization, organic content creation, all this in a former life, former private equity owned business, you know, I was involved in this, you know, creating content to attract eyeballs to website, and the eyeballs are worth money.

And so, what you’re talking about is literally thousands and thousands of websites and YouTube videos, just content being created to make money for these online website owners and operators, etc. But a lot of it’s not accurate or…

Well, let me just start there. Is it accurate? Is the deluge, is it even accurate? If I go Google X, Y, Z topic, am I going to land somewhere good? You know, that – Yeah. It’s not flat out wrong, but what it is, is it’s often very generic and very vague, and it’s regurgitated and it’s so vague and so generic that it’s not actionable.

And like, that’s ultimately what matters, right? Is whether someone can take action on this so they can consume this piece of content and know exactly step by step what they need to do, and asking the college intern or the journalism or the English major to do that.

And by the way, nothing against English majors. I’m married, very happily married to an English major and she’s wonderful at a lot of things, but…

– And she’s smarter than you, Michael. She’s smarter than you too. So, you know?

– She is, but she’s not great at explaining the difference between a traditional and a Roth IRA, nor should she be asked to. So my point, Andy, here is that there’s a need for the folks who have deep expertise in this and a lot of experience to create this content that answers these questions that are germane and are relevant to the everyday retail investor.

But instead they’re focusing their time on the deep think pieces about the FED’s upcoming rate decisions and not kind of lowering themselves, if I can use that term to create some of this, this basic content that’s super important, that’s table stakes, building blocks and is going to have a massive impact for a lot of investors.

– Yeah. Well, okay. One point of clarification, you’re both smart. I mean, you’re a power couple. Like, I’m just pointing out, Callie is very, very smart in many areas, you know? She’s a very smart person. But your point, you’re the finance nerd, right?

– That’s right.

– And so, what you’re really saying, you know, and I’m an entrepreneur, so I get it, and by the way, I’m not calling anybody out for chasing eyeballs, because if you own an internet media business, that’s the name of the game is you’re chasing eyeballs. But even the Wall Street Journal, right? Like even at the very apex of financial media, the way to chase eyeballs is to report on certain types of stories that are sensationalist, that essentially end up being like, oh, hey, look, a shiny, new penny.

Right? Like at the end of the day, it’s like, this is to entertain me, but to your point, as an investor, it’s not actually serving me beyond entertaining me?

– Yeah, no, absolutely, Andy. So, there’s kind of two pieces of this. One, yes, clickbait headline, throw Taylor Swift in there, get more eyeballs on it, somehow tied into investing in the stock markets, right? And then the other piece of it is just the sheer, like the sheer volume of the content out there. Like, we have multiple 24/7 cable news networks devoted to financial markets. We have, I don’t know, dozens, hundreds of websites, like literally millions and millions pieces of content and articles.

But, you don’t need to know a million things to be a good investor. Like honestly, I think you need to know seven things. I think you need to understand seven concepts, not 7 million, and if you get those seven, like, man, you’re most of the way there. You’re going to beat 90% of folks out there, and you’ve got much better odds of a worry-free retirement and of meeting your goals.

So, I think that’s a big challenge, though. There’s just so much junk out there, Andy, that kind of filtering through it, and you used the signal and the noise that, that analogy, that’s tough because there’s just so much of it, right?

– So, I feel like you just, you know, you kind of worked it in, but you dropped a bomb here, and I got to pause and say, wait, you’re telling me all this deluge of content being published every day, I mean, it’s thousands of articles and videos per day even.

– Yep.

– And as an investor, any investor, my mom the investor, me, my wife, whoever, anybody listening, there’s seven things they need to know, and that’s it. I mean, that’s a bomb, man. I mean, that’s a bold statement. I can’t let you say that without following up and saying, well, what are those seven things? I mean, I feel like you’re ethically bound to now share those with us.

– Yeah. So let’s get into it. And when I say there’s seven things you need to know, I kind of frame this in the context of you want to plan for and save for, and have a worry-free retirement, whatever that means. So, I say, Andy, start at the end. So, you have to understand what’s the end game here? What am I trying to achieve? So, for a lot of, you know, that’s essentially what are you going to be spending in retirement?

That’s where you want to get to, right? And then from there, number two is you figure out, okay, well, how much do I need to have that? And then once you figure that out, you kind of say, okay, well, how do I get there? And spoiler alert, the answer is probably through a diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds and investing and holding for the long term. And then the fourth thing is, well, what are the traps along the way?

Where do most people go wrong here? Why do most people screw this up? And then fifth is kind of nuts and bolts. So, what are the tools that you have? How are you going to implement this? Let’s get down to brass tacks. You’re going to use a 401(k), an IRA, some other tools, but specifically, what are those things you’ve got?

What are those arrows you’ve got in your quiver to use?

– And that, Michael, that’s where you’re kind of saying, you know, a lot of the content out there will give you principles, but it won’t give you actionables, and this is, in your vision and your plan and in these steps, you’re making it very, very concrete, like…

– Yeah, that’s right. And it kind of flows, it flows logically, and yeah, Andy, I think like actionable is a word that I’m going to mention here a bunch and sound like a broken record, because I think it’s so important and it’s lacking in a lot of the content that’s out there. It might not be, to your point, it might not be factually incorrect, but good luck trying to consume it, and then knowing having done that, what the heck you’re supposed to do with that information.

– Right. Right. Okay. So, that was the fifth thing that you needed to know.

– Yeah, that was the fifth. And then I think something that everyone should understand is kind of some basics of estate planning. So, the actual end, you’re going to die, Andy, I’m going to die. Understanding what happens when we pass away and making sure that we do things that make it easier for our loved ones, for our heirs, wherever our money’s going, whether it’s to individuals or to charities or to organizations, there’s some kind of basic things [crosstalk].

– …on earth, you know, for me, for my religious belief. But yeah, no. And that’s a big thing because to the point of feeling good about my financial plan, I want to know that I’m not leaving a mess after I’m gone, you know?

– Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

– And so, what’s the seventh thing?

– So, the seventh is understanding what the team that you need is. And for some people, it’s a one-man team. You may be able to kind of consume all this content, understand what needs to be done, and then take everything under your responsibility and you kind of implement it all. And for other people, and that might not be the case. They want to hire someone to prepare their taxes. They want to hire an estate attorney to make sure that all those t’s are crossed and i’s are dotted, and they might want to hire a financial advisor to help them out along the way.

You know, there’s different levels of complexity here depending on your situation. For some people, I think hiring a financial advisor, it might be outside of your spouse, the second most important decision you make in your life, and I kind of say that half joking, but when you look at the impact it might have on your finances and everything that touches, pretty major decision.

So, I think understanding how to do that, if you should do that, is super important.

– Yeah. So, and I want to now, you know, share with the audience with our listeners, because I’ve had the good fortune to kind of watch this up close, like I’m watching to see how the sausage is made, but it’s actually really cool, you know, in the sense that I think you’ve done a good job of explaining it, but if you think about the two extremes here, right?

Because what you’re telling me is really, you’re going to give me the seven steps, what I need to do to achieve a worry-free retirement to become independently wealthy or financial freedom, whatever we want to call that. One extreme would be you’re going to simplify it so much that it’s going to be vague and you’ll tell me good principles, but they won’t really give me like a step-by-step plan or checklist or anything concrete enough to do.

On the other end of the spectrum, you could give me a 10,000-page book or whatever, however many pages, endlessly complex, that goes over any possible permutation of any given decision, and instead the approach that you’ve taken is what’s going to work for 95% of people, 95% of the time in a distilled and simplified way, but also with granular detail and concrete step by step.

And what I want to convey to our listeners, because I’ve seen you outline the material, rework it, flesh it out and then go, how do we simplify this? Okay. Flesh it out, rework it, diagram. I’ve seen you go through that like seven or eight times already, and it really hammers home the principle in my mind that I already knew but I’m reminded of it.

It’s really hard to take complex things and make them simple, or to take something that has this many details and to simplify it and distill it in a way that is digestible and intuitive for someone who’s a beginner. And it’s something that most of the finance industry, they haven’t even bothered to do it, right? Like, no one’s even really attempting to do this.

Is that fair?

– Yeah. That’s absolutely right, Andy, and I’ve heard people say sometimes I wish I had a longer time to write a shorter note, and in emails that I’ve gotten, you know, to the point that it’s really hard to distill things down or like, I’m thinking now somewhere on this wall of books behind me, there’s a biography of the late, great Dr. Seuss, and you think about like a book like “Sam-I-Am, you think that, well, that’s a children’s book.

But when you think about it, when you think about how much work it was to distill that into the incredibly small number of words that was used in it, I know it’s a weird tangent and a weird analogy here, but to your point, to kind of simplify a story and simplify something so much is actually incredibly difficult, and that’s why most people don’t do it. It’s why they gravitate towards one of those two extremes where it’s overly vague and generic, or it’s one of those million things that you don’t really need to know.

– But here’s the thing. You are a very ambitious person. You’re confident, like rightfully so, ambitious, and I think, but I think you’re also going about this in a humble way. You’ve decided, you know what? I’m going to throw my hat in the ring. I’m going to try and do this and that’s really what we’re talking about today. I think this project, it’s already a ton of work to even get it to where it is right now, and then I think it’s going to be a big undertaking this year.

But the content that you’ve already created, as I’ve gotten sort of this inside peek at it, sneak peek, it’s incredible how intuitive it is. But why don’t you, if you’re willing, just kind of walk us through what is it that you’ve created?

How can I, as an investor, how will I be able to consume it or learn from you? What’s the learning modality? Where do we even start? What is the project? What’s it called?

– Yeah. So, this is called WealthChannel Academy. WealthChannel is the site that you, Andy, you and I are partners on. So, we’re launching this in kind of a bunch of different modalities. So, you’re going to be able to subscribe to our YouTube channel. We’re going to put up new videos each week. You can get this in an audio format, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.

We’re going to have a newsletter as well each week, and then there’ll be some companion content that we publish on the website. Sometimes it’s nice to have additional links. We’ll have some tools and calculators that will help folks go through some of the steps, and we’ll include those show notes or those additional resources on our website as well. So, head over to wealthchannel.com/academy.

We’ll have additional information where to subscribe to the YouTube channel, sign up for the newsletter, sign up for the audio podcast if you prefer that. It’s all going to be 100% free. We’re going to be releasing new episodes each week throughout the course of the year, and it’s coming soon. It’s going to be a ton of fun.

– Yeah. And, you know, one thing that I’m really excited about Michael, is, I mean, we’re Millennials, right? So, anyone listening, if you want to judge our generation harshly, you know, fair, but love us or hate us, we’re on YouTube, right? And I think that’s a modality that’s preferred by many of our peers and some younger folks, and by the way, some older folks.

Like, YouTube is just, it’s a great way to consume bite-sized chunks of content. The thing is though, when you put content on YouTube, it’s like, wow, I’m competing with all this other content on YouTube that’s very entertaining, it’s distracting. Like, we were talking about content being like, oh, look, there’s a shiny new penny.

Feels like that’s all YouTube is, right, is a bunch of shiny pennies vying for everyone’s attention. But what you’ve done, you’ve put an incredible amount of work and time and attention into distilling this information and then creating very digestible, I would say, entertaining videos that are easy to watch.

And to me, that’s like a neat trick is, well, you mentioned Dr. Seuss, like maybe that’s an example, right? Is like, I can read a Dr. Seuss book to one of my kids, and, like, I’m teaching them to read, but they’re not looking at it like, oh, my dad’s making me do homework. This is a real chore. Like, it’s a fun, easy modality to learn to read, because Dr.

Seuss, like, I mean, I love the illustrations, but I mean, he’s a good poet, but the illustrations are awesome. And so, that’s what you’ve done here is I think you’ve made it, I’ve seen some of these videos that you’ve already created and some that are in the works, just the visual format of learning. To me, this is going to be so much more digestible and entertaining, I think so.

– Yeah. I think that’s a piece of it, Andy. It’s also going to be contextual and sequential, right? Like, a lot of times when there’s good content out there, it’s without any context and it’s just kind of scattershot. Someone says, “Oh, I want to make a video about this,” and it might be good information, right? But it doesn’t kind of fit into this logical progression, so for a lot of people, it kind of feels like it came out of nowhere because it did come out of nowhere.

And it’s, well, okay, what does this build off of and what comes next? So, that’s what this is going to be. It’s going to have that context, it’s going to have those foundational principles, going to have that logical progression through, you know, starting at the end, like I mentioned and then where do you go from there? What logically builds off of each step?

– Do you think most investors have that? I mean, to your point, it’s not just the topic at hand, the immediate topic of 401(k) versus IRA or Roth versus traditional IRA or whatever. It’s, do you even have an overall framework, an overall structure to your investing to allow you to kind of filter and organize and prioritize?

Do you think most investors even have that currently?

– Absolutely not. I know for a fact they don’t. Andy, we get a lot of questions from folks who are smart and sophisticated investors, or smart and sophisticated individuals, but they don’t have this framework. And what drives me crazy is like, it’s really not that complicated. There’s this misconception about how complex investing and retirement planning really is.

It really isn’t. When you understand a few basic concepts and when you kind of build off of each of those, it’s fairly straightforward. Yes, there’s some wrinkles along the way and there’s some, a bunch of thousands of pages in the tax code, but most of that stuff you don’t need to worry about or you need to understand it at a very, very high level.

So, I think that this stuff is, like, you know, people kind of look at me sideways when I say this, but like, this stuff is actually pretty easy if you just learn it the right way.

– Yeah. And, it’s high leverage, right? Like, because you’re not talking about like, hey, every investor in the United States should go back to college and get a bachelor’s in finance or a master’s in finance or whatever. That’s not what you’re talking about at all. You’re talking about some basic fundamental concepts and then implemented in, like, I hate to say it, but in a basic manner, right?

Like, there’s nothing really advanced going on, but how much leverage, then, does that have on my portfolio over decades, let’s say, like, a structured process like what you’re talking about that is very, very tax efficient and strategic compared to my normal slap dash, hey, shiny new penny. Oh, I’ve had three, 401(k)s, but I forgot where one is, you know?

Compared to the typical investor experience or approach, what kind of leverage does that have, like, over my net worth over a period of time? Like, how dramatic is it, I guess is what I’m asking?

– Yeah, no, it’s a great question. And of course it’s kind of hard to quantify depending on how much you’re saving, but for a lot of people, like, this has the impact of creating hundreds of thousands of dollars for a lot of people it creates a million dollars or more in incremental wealth just by doing the basic stuff, by getting out of the expensive, unnecessarily expensive, products by doing the basic blocking and tackling from a tax perspective, getting your stuff into a tax-efficient account, avoiding those behavioral traps that trip up a lot of people and eat into their returns.

So, Andy, I am not trying to dodge your question here, but I think it’s hundreds of thousands of dollars for what can be a few hours of work. It’s a crazy return on investment. Like, it’s nuts that people don’t do this.

– And is that, I guess, is that the hook? So, I know we’re almost running out of time, but how do you, you know, in a world where everybody wants a secret formula or, like, one weird trick, and it sounds to me more like you just get the basics right and this is actually easy. I mean, is that really your hook?

Is that, hey guys, this is actually easier than you think. You just need WealthChannel Academy?

– Yeah, that’s right. That’s right, Andy. And a big thing, I mentioned that I’m a big fan of things that are actionable and I’m also a big fan of quantifying things. So, I think that’s a pretty sexy hook for people when you’re explaining, well, here’s how much value contributing to a 401(k), or how much value you can create through a backdoor Roth IRA or some of these different mechanisms out there.

In these videos, I’ll go through examples and quantify exactly, you know, if you go route A, which is be lazy and don’t do anything and just bury your head in the sand, here’s what you’ll have, and you go route B, you spend an hour doing this and it’s going to create $100,000 in wealth for you. So, I think that’s pretty exciting. I think those, like, I’m throwing out numbers here that I think get a lot of people excited and you start calculating what your hourly rate is for working on some of this stuff.

So, maybe it’s not some people’s idea of the most exciting stuff in the world, but when you start thinking about it, the type of wealth you’re going to create for yourself, when you think about what you’re going to spend it on, it actually is the most exciting thing in the world, right?

– Yeah, and you are passionate about making it simple. And to me, simple is its own sexy. Because I just, I know how hard it is to take curriculum and make it simple and make it intuitive, and I’ll promise anybody listening right now, he’s got, Michael has blood, sweat and tears into making this show, this curriculum, as value creating as it could possibly be, so I’m tremendously excited about it as co-founder of WealthChannel.

I would’ve loved to do something like this myself, but I’m not smart enough or hardworking enough or good looking enough to put it together. So, Michael is the right guy to do it. It’s going to be launching here in just a couple days and actually I think by the time this episode airs, it will be live. So, Michael, we’re about out of time here, but where can our listeners go to connect with you or to, one more time, to subscribe to this new show, this new curriculum?

– Yep. Go to wealthchannel.com/academy, and I’ll have links there to the YouTube channel, the newsletter, and anywhere you get your podcasts.

– All right, thanks Michael and thanks so much for joining the show today.

– Hey, Andy, my pleasure. Thank you.